It's A Privilege

Privilege of Travel (Part 2 of 3): Unpacking the Journey

• Jason Browne • Season 1 • Episode 7

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This episode of 'It's a Privilege' podcast is part two in a discussion on the privilege of travel, featuring guests Peter Teehan and John Ockenfels, both aviation enthusiasts and Rotarians working to end polio. The hosts, Jason, Dawn, and James, dive into the nuances of the privilege of travel, discussing the guests' experiences flying around the world, the impacts of cultural encounters, and the challenges and rewards of travel. 

The conversation also touches on the role of identity and safety in travel, differences in travel experiences, and the ways travel can expand perspectives. The episode concludes with a Q&A session exploring how personal experiences during their mission have influenced Peter and John's views on global communities and service. This is part two of a three-part series.

Follow the Flight to End Polio: https://www.flighttoendpolio.com/
Learn more about the End Polio Now Campaign: https://www.endpolio.org/

For more information about the host, go to www.thejasonbrowne.com
Check out the TEDx talk here: TEDx Possibilities of Privilege
Thanks you for being a part of the conversation.

Jason Browne:

Welcome to it's a privilege podcast where we explore the possibilities of our privilege This is part two on the privilege of travel We strongly recommend for you to go back and listen to part one to get the full story On today's episode we have two special guests They are aviation friends passionate Rotarians and advocates to end polio One is a mental health professional who has led natural disaster efforts And the other is a U S military veteran with international service awards We have Peter Teehan and John Ockenfels I also had the privilege of having two wonderful co hosts James Tierney private tutor academic coach improviser and co founder of Happy Valley Improv and Dawn Rosenbaum a non binary health care professional and improv director What can you expect in this episode First our crew is going to dive deeper into the concepts of the privilege of travel And then we're going to go into the Q A P questions answers and privilege with the two pilots to further explore the nuance of the privilege of travel We just finished watching the privilege perspective with the two pilots and hearing their story So let's see where this conversation takes us Welcome back everybody From the privileged perspective a little turbulence That's what it sounded like Or what are your initial thoughts Anything that resonated with you regarding travel and privilege from their stories

Dawn:

I think that was a pretty incredible thing to try to accomplish and pull off especially for two gentlemen I thought that was really cool as a concept And what a time to do it too especially with the different things going on whether it be political or just you know epidemical that's a word you know

Jason Browne:

We're going to coin that phrase for this

James Tierney:

sounds like a great word to me

Jason Browne:

Yeah

Dawn:

Yeah It's my initial thoughts What a what a thing to sign up for and be like yes let's do this

James Tierney:

And to have the ability to do it right They talked about both of them being in their 70s so there has to be a lot of luck and a lot of privilege Yeah To make it that far and be in health having a mind that can stay calm during different disasters and kind of all those life experiences that end up piling on each other to lead to that moment was pretty fascinating

Jason Browne:

To your point though about them choosing to do it during such a tumultuous time internationally they got a lot of pushback from wanting to do this Their family was like don't do it Rotary was like don't do it People around the world were just like don't do it But they chose to do it anyway I feel like that's not too dissimilar from how Many people talk about travel in general like when I was younger and I would be like yo I want to go you know down to I want to go travel to another country Like why would you Philly's great Do you get pushback for trying to go outside of your bubble and travel to something else Or is that just something imaginary that we put up our walls internally to prevent ourselves from doing it

James Tierney:

I think that there's always pushback People like safety people like security and there's a fear of the unknown So I get personally pushback and I don't know if it's necessarily from danger you know a lot of it's like Oh man you shouldn't that's going to cost a lot of money shouldn't you be worried about saving for retirement or you know I could never do that because of you know X Y and Z think a lot of it's the fear

Dawn:

speaking of that fear I'm thinking of a person in my life who did travel around the world but did so in the U S Navy only so that's their very structured exposure to people in the context of that travel And every time I tell them I'm going somewhere oh you can't go there I don't know if you know this but this is happening They would become I stopped telling them when I was traveling because they would become fearful for my life no matter where it was It was always like oh you can't go this way it's not safe and there was all these different almost I want to say conspiracy theories as to why it wasn't safe to go to this place but I think it was a lot rooted into just a fear of other cultures a fear of the unknown And so yeah I think of this when you talk about fear of the unknown because I'm like yeah every single time I was like Oh go somewhere And they considered themselves well traveled but it was always under the context of specifics experience when they were younger

Jason Browne:

mean It wasn't like they had a easy peasy flight around the world They ran into a bunch of the stuff that a lot of people said that they would run into And I would imagine that if you travel to some of the places that your friend mentioned that you might run into some of those issues Yes what your friends are telling you also James is like Yeah you could be saving your money I could be These are so there's some truth to what people are saying even if it's out of fear So why push through that Why why why do you choose to not listen to your friend and travel anyway Why

Dawn:

I Have a comfort with you got like two kinds of friends in terms of the way they approach travel one is a person who's like you know what You're going to have a great time They don't tell you anything about things to be prepared for They're going to tell you about all the things they're excited for you to do They're going to be like you're going to go visit this place You got to stop at this tourist place You got to do all that Then there's the other kind of friend who's like listen You're going to have a good time but make sure and that's when they start telling you about stuff that's more precautionary make sure you bring a different adapter for your plugin because it's not going to work Make sure that if you see these people trying to hand you cards you do not take that card you know that kind of stuff And I'm a person who has been accused of being the latter for me because to sort of have that security of just even things like cultural lingo can help me feel like I'm more comfortable in a place even if I don't know it Um I don't like to stick out like a tourist it's really easy to do when you're white and you go to places that aren't Europe um but uh and so any kind of cultural know how I can do to like not be the person who looks like you're classic you Cartoony touristy person who's out there taking photos and being like oh wow this is really great That's the leaning tower pizza Like I don't wanna be that person I don't know why

James Tierney:

So what I'm hearing Dawn

Dawn:

is

James Tierney:

that Part of your travel is also feeling of people's perspectives but not necessarily your friends or family and how they perceive of you being able to or not being able to travel but rather when you're traveling to other places well how are you being perceived by those individuals So it still comes back to the Caring about the perception of others

Dawn:

Yeah But see that's on brand for me That's not on brand for you

James Tierney:

I think it is

Dawn:

the that's that's the exciting part is to learn that it's also on brand for you

Jason Browne:

But some of the perspectives that they said is that people were treating them kindly no matter where they went they're like I trust that people are going to treat them well like that was the perception of others even when they were in very tense situations they're like the goodness of people will prevail in those particular cases

Dawn:

And that surprised them too That was the thing that was also interesting to me is he was surprised by the fact that people were kind and welcoming And he says very specifically like no one told us that we had that we should go home nobody was not welcoming and that surprised them

Jason Browne:

Which encourages them to continue to travel again Equally if they got just as amount of pushback they probably wouldn't like if you went to go to the Leaning Tower of Pisa and somebody's like Oh look at that tourist taking a Leaning Tower of Pisa photo you might be like Well I'm never coming back here again So like the experience that one has had which would not be consistent across all people having that trip is going to influence your perception about going back to or even travel in general I went what is the have you ever traveled and gotten pushed back Like to a point where like I will never go there It could be somewhere local too

Dawn:

I don't want to say specifics in terms of where I was exactly but I can say that I got pushed back and what it became was a very humbling experience for me to wonder why would somebody have such animosity for someone like me only to then find out that the political climate of that area Involved a lot of abuse from people who look like my demographic and then to realize that like oh yeah No if I saw yet another person coming here to then Potentially make profit off of this person's home that they might not Not be too happy about that And so I can't say I want to go back there again I don't like to cause people discomfort but it it it for me it was like why why what is what is so like why why is this happening I went and then to find out culturally like Oh no it's it's a big deal to understand

James Tierney:

I don't think I've ever ran into a situation where I've went outside my comfort zone for travel and then been like Ooh these like gotten pushback for it I think I've been surprised though to the pilots of You know having kind of this fear in the background of like oh man I'm going to go here and I don't know the language And so they're probably going to judge me And you know I'm not going to feel welcomed And I haven't had that experience Now when we do travel internationally it's usually very touristy areas We're not you know going hundreds of miles out into a country where you know you don't know the culture and the language so perhaps that's why so yeah

Jason Browne:

So these two pilots had each other to go travel to do something that everyone pushed back on You have your wife to go travel with What the value of having like a buddy or a friend that like You know what Let's do it anyway a how much of that is a factor

James Tierney:

For me personally I don't like experiencing things alone I get a lot of happiness and utility out of experiencing things with other people And so like If someone was like here's an all paid trip to wherever you want to go I don't think I would enjoy it

Jason Browne:

Unless it's Vegas

James Tierney:

Yeah But like when I go to Vegas I'm at a craps table and there's comradery and there's other people who are commiserating with you while you you know go home with less money So

Jason Browne:

What about you Dawn Like is it a partner experience

Dawn:

full confession Don Rosenbaum when I was thinking about what I wanted to be when I grew up as a career I genuinely was like I'm going to be a pilot I'll be a flight attendant I wanted to travel the world I have a huge travel bug and then I was like Oh man I'm gonna Date somebody and That's going to make it really hard to keep that relationship with all the traveling I'm doing and all the international stays I'm just not going to be able to I guess that's important to me too So I genuinely changed my travel plans in order to support the amount of commitment I thought I would need and time I thought I would need to be in a relationship in my young 20s But most of the travel I've done I've done with my partner I've done without my partner I have a very balanced relationship where he is an introvert and I am an extrovert So when I'm like hey I'm gonna go do all these things gonna be incredibly people y I'm gonna have a lot of fun he's like that Does not sound pleasing to me So a lot of my travel has actually been without him And while I do enjoy being with other people as we've already established it's kind of nice to not have another person that I got to worry about I can just be like I'm just going to go do this fun thing and go hang out and everything I need is on the person and I'm good

Jason Browne:

So I can completely relate to that But when I travel there's a part of me that needs to have Jason alone time at this point in my life it doesn't matter who I'm traveling with family or otherwise I need a day for me which I can just go walking and explore and do all the things that I want to without having to be like while I do appreciate this idea of having a buddy buddy and like maybe that can get to you over the hurdle of tackling something together I'm the type of person that wants to be uncomfortable I want to be pushed to a place where I'm not sure if it's safe I know this sounds weird but like that's that's the travel part that I crave getting outside of the touristy areas And it's still a challenge for me It's not like it's easy for me to do Sometimes when I was in in India that I talk about in the TEDx talk I stayed in my hotel room for a whole day Cause I was scared to go out And I was just like you know you know what I justify I was like I had a long travel here I'm just going to stay I wasn't tired I was making up excuses because I was afraid to step out of my comfort zone But once I finally break through that door then it's like I need to experience And that's one of the things that we'll get to in QA and P I asked the pilots about how much they were able to connect to folks

James Tierney:

I appreciate you sharing that It's just completely different from my experience If I had to be in a place with no one else that I didn't know I would be extremely uncomfortable Maybe that means it's something that I should experience but I would hate it I want to be there with someone I would go make a friend right away

Jason Browne:

Oh okay

Dawn:

See I like the act of going to make the friend That's my favorite part Is being able to like go find somebody especially if they're a local because I feel like locals have some of the best stories They oh and I love getting them talking And I love asking them all these questions I think that's great So you

James Tierney:

you enjoyed first dates

Jason Browne:

probably know about me I was

Dawn:

Maybe I guess first dates no as you guys probably know about me I over thought it and I was too busy being like don't move If you move they'll know you're not awesome so no I wasn't really relaxed on first dates but like there's at first date there is a weird like transactional

Jason Browne:

is

Dawn:

exchange that is happening that is is like okay this person is potentially going to offer to pay for my meal Do I let them have that If I let them have that do they then expect me to give something physically It was just unfortunately a pressure I get to experience and so yeah first dates are like Oh God what is it What is going to be expected of me in this evening slash am I even going to enjoy myself while trying to get to know this other person and so no

James Tierney:

you went on some pretty bad first dates

Jason Browne:

but I can actually relate to this And I think that what you're talking about is no different than going to some countries when you talking to people because you don't know what is expected when you engage with the conversation

Dawn:

Mm-Hmm like

Jason Browne:

in certain areas if you start talking to somebody they're going to want try to sell you something Well do I not talk to anybody now Because now their expectation is I'm going to buy something

Dawn:

Mm-Hmm

Jason Browne:

One example was I was sitting on the Ganges River which is in Vedanasi and it's a very spiritual place and there are a lot of folks who are actually from the temples themselves who practice and are very spiritual There are other people that are not so but they act so so they can get money and I'm sure there's some gradients in between but if I do go to the extremes that's what it is So there's one person just sitting there and I turned to engage with this person because just like you said connection is beautiful with another human and instantly I realized that He's going to ask me for my I don't know what it was And then he started engaging with me and kept pressuring me and pressuring me I was like man I wish I didn't do that But that also was a moment of like that's why I'm traveling is to have those experiences but that expectation came along the way and which took away from the moment

Dawn:

you just reminded me of a thing I like to joke about when it comes to going to New York I said I can't stay in New York City for too long cause it makes me mean And people were like what are you talking about I was like well in New York City I got my city hat on by that I mean my eyes are down Because if you engage in eye contact with anybody suddenly you are kind of a target in some opportunities And when people do not respect the word no when it's only said once what ends up happening is you get really good at looking unapproachable not noticing very loud and like in your face things that are happening like right here right beside you And then In addition you learn how to say no and not subtle ways I go home and I'm like I just need to remind myself that I am kind I am caring yeah And that that just reminded me of that Cause like New York city I can't stay in the city too long It makes me mean Not not any other city mind you I am comfortable as hell in Boston and it's a place that's known for swearing and just people who are like also in your face but not New York City So to

Jason Browne:

to that point not every place you travel to is going to be suitable for you but you don't know whether that's suitable for you until you travel to that place Also by you traveling a good amount you're able to discern whether or not this place is good for you because you have the experience of being like Oh I get the feeling of it This reminds me of these like the vibe here I can adjust to that there's like an infinite level of learning and uncomfortability that comes from travel The more you travel the more you learn about the things that make you uncomfortable but give you more insight to go travel again only for you to then be uncomfortable which then allow you to learn to go to the next thing And I can understand why some people don't want to do

Dawn:

Yeah also for me there are certain places I will not travel to or when I go to travel to a place I do a lot of research on the traditional cultures of that place in regards to sexism And part of the reason why is because as a non binary person a lot of We're kind of new to a lot of people right And there are places that even have language that does not reflect the non binary one of the things is very Roman languages there's femme and then there's masculine words everywhere all the time There's not a middle ground word There is there's this language is developing and stuff but it is very easy for me to assume that everywhere I go I'm going to present as a woman And so I have to see what the culture is regarding how they treat women because especially not only am I known for being like a loud American already like we're known for being very boisterous people that take up a lot of space But then on top of that if it's a space that's not welcoming for women especially if it's Women aren't supposed to be talking or women are supposed to be more conservative not heard et cetera et cetera Those are not countries that I feel comfortable going to especially by myself because in terms of my ability and utility to be able to explore travel even talk to locals it's drastically diminished because of my perceived gender and the treatment of women period in whatever that culture is Does that make sense

Jason Browne:

Yeah

Dawn:

Has your identity ever impacted your travel at all

James Tierney:

No

Jason Browne:

Not not at all Like you feel comfortable going into if I was like yo let's go into West Philly right now

James Tierney:

By myself or with you

Jason Browne:

either way

James Tierney:

if I was forced into a situation of going into as a as a white man going into a community that has For hundreds if not thousands of years has been shit on by people like me then would I feel scared uncomfortable or would I feel like I deserve it one time we talked about this road trip that my wife and I went on and we tried to stay as cheaply as possible my friend Artemis who I get to see this weekend for the first time in probably almost 10 years is a black man that I went to college with he was living in a studio apartment in the Bronx And he offered for Kim and I to stay with him when we went to Yankee Stadium we were like absolutely because we wanted a place to stay which included your stereotypical finding parking on the street which was almost impossible Taking the New York city subway with every type of person that you could think of looks smells heights whatever to the Bronx Yankee stadium And then coming back at midnight going to the car of just the two of us And Artemis just being like Oh just come on up Like I'll buzz you up And walking through a group of probably 20 year old black men who catcalling my wife And I guess I felt uncomfortable but we both were just like These are people this is humanity we put ourselves in this situation and like We're just going to trust in that and maybe that's just me being naive And we just kept walking and we were just like hey and Went up to the studio apartment which was extremely hot because it was the summer in the Bronx and had a nice trip with Artemis

Jason Browne:

is then yes not no Like okay

James Tierney:

I thought I I tied to my identity but I I maybe I missed I thought the question was have I ever not So I'm trying to put myself with what Dawn was saying Are there places that I would absolutely never go because of my identity And I don't think I don't I don't think that is true

Jason Browne:

Okay fair enough

James Tierney:

Are there places that I'd be like man I really don't want to And maybe this is the people pleasing because if Jason was like Hey let's go experience this thing that you might die And I'll be like well if Jason wants to do it I guess I should do it Uh Yeah so I think I was taking it in that direction

Jason Browne:

No no that makes a lot of sense

James Tierney:

Like I don't know if there and maybe there are and maybe again I'm just being I don't know if there are any places in the world that myself as a white man would feel as out of place as many of my female presenting friends and family would feel in certain areas

Dawn:

So you don't feel the need to do research ahead of time regarding that whatsoever but you might find yourself in a location in a location where you look around and go this might not have been the best decision

James Tierney:

Correct Like there was a time my father and I were in Baltimore and a turn down a street and we went We probably don't want to be here But like we but we weren't fearful of our lives Jason yeah I'm

Jason Browne:

so I grew up in a predominantly white area with my parents did everything they could to make sure that I had black friends so when it came to traveling within city limits or outside of Philly It was fairly easy for me to code switch like I could hang out with black folks I can hang out with white folks I got used to being in that space It allowed me to figure out how to code switch better even when I traveled So like if I'm traveling to another location I can more easily than some of my friends who don't have to do this to assess what's going on how to mingle effectively Now I'm sure I'm the weird black American at times and I'm the one that's loud and and saying things you know it was like Oh my God look at that American But like there's and there's no way around who I am as a person However I do think that I think it's mostly because of that fact that I can adapt a little bit easier But have I felt uncomfortable walking into a room Yeah I do that all the time if I walk into any place outside of our current town which is state college Pennsylvania and I go into a gas station or a bar and all I see are people that do not look like me or a lot of pickup trucks I am very aware that Will I stop myself from going into this store There has to be a very obvious red flag for me not to do that There are times in which I questioned the environment but very few times will I choose not to do it unless someone's like waving a Confederate flag at me And then I'm like you know what I don't think I really want to have lunch here but like outside of the United States I'm very close to you in this perception I think about how someone who is female might be treated in Egypt for instance Right Someone who's female or perceived to be female in a country like Egypt the rights are not equal there are very different expectations and oppressions placed upon you If you were perceived to be a certain thing uh I will never have to experience that And I probably can navigate my way at least I feel comfortable enough to navigate my way around that So because of that unless someone is standing with an AK in front of a room or a confederate flag I'm probably going to walk in So that I relate to

James Tierney:

I took it I took it as my identity as a straight white man Going places

Jason Browne:

Yeah

James Tierney:

I believe there would be a handful of places in my identity as an American that I would feel like I should not go Like if like I would not flash a United States you know here's here's my

Jason Browne:

passport

James Tierney:

But again it's not because like the people in charge have said they say Oh there's no rights for I think it's Oh You're from the United States you're a white man Your family probably has more money than we do So it would be advantageous for me to kidnap you and try and get money from people who know you

Jason Browne:

after your thoughts Dawn we're going to head back into questions answers a privilege but I want to hear what your thoughts

Dawn:

I at first when I was talking when I was learning about code switching it was in the context of people of color having to accommodate white folks perception of people of color by adapting to different situations But for for me I had sort of had grown up in all these different Families with all these different ways of talking that I was like oh that's kind of what I do Um I have learned since it is not quite the same thing at all but I I also find that it is as as an american the the part of code switching I think we fail on when it comes to traveling is that we um American language the way we speak english is very forceful That makes any sense It's direct and there's a lot of cultural Communities where to be like I want this is like whoa Whoa Whoa what you mean is could you by any chance if you get time No big deal Maybe you happen to be also doing this thing perhaps If it's all right bring me this thing And so uh to be especially if we go to a place where women don't tend to have as many rights or things like that it's even more important to be even more humble and even less direct And so that's the part where being an American no matter how much I try to like adapt to the culture and what people are saying and to try to sort of find that meaning With someone and commonalities and learn from them I definitely like oh yeah I'm going to come off as the loud one because regardless it's it's very it's one thing to be a man and to be direct but as a non binary person I've adapted to be very assertive whether it be because I have a masculine part of me whether it be because I have an American part of my identity So then to go to another country and be like what's up I'm direct And then for them to be like whoa whoa this woman is direct It's like a violation on multiple levels So yeah I totally agree with both y'all in terms of like there are certain places where it's just unsafe I think a lot of the places you guys described it's kind of unsafe for a lot of people It's not just like talking about um being in the middle of the night walking past a group of 20 something year old men at any time it doesn't matter who you are I feel like you might be considered endangered in that circumstance But uh yeah I have to watch how I come across off to people more when it comes to the code switching involved in travel because I know I'm coming off as a woman who's also then assertive and boisterous

Jason Browne:

Whether it's code switching or whether it's our identity travel still impacts us all a little bit differently Let's hop into Q A and P and see how travel personally impacted the two pilots in 2023 You both flew around the world in a plane with a cockpit the size of a bathroom stall Forced to be with each other for months My friends and I don't even sit that close together when we go to a restaurant Why did you do that

Peter Tehan:

we tried to do the best we could to make more room John and I and you figured gas is a gallon of gas is six pounds So we needed to carry more gas We needed more room in the cockpit And so before we took off John and I lost a total of about 120 pounds in weight between the two of us and we've got more room sitting here than we did in the cockpit So thank heavens we lost those 120 pounds

John Ockenfels:

and then we put on the survival suits Yeah that were very tight Yeah actually Peter and I get along because we both Shared a lot of experiences in life that are similar We both had similar family backgrounds in a lot of ways but more important either one of us take ourselves very seriously and it's all about what we're doing for other people And I think that's what this flight was about and that's what helps us get along

Jason Browne:

So with the idea of connecting to other people with so much travel in so little time to what extent were you able to connect with the locals in the areas and the places in which you landed

John Ockenfels:

That was one of the downsides of the flight to be honest with you We were so tightly scheduled for stuff And with the delays because of weather or maintenance or illness or whatever we really did not get the opportunity to spend a lot of time with the local people In many cases it was just in there overnight and going the next day or in there for a day or two and going again The people we did meet were phenomenal absolutely wonderful people around the world

Peter Tehan:

We had very few meals alone We always had Rotarians in the area or we'd find people to sit down and meet with but just to have a casual day where you weren't doing anything just didn't exist because of the time constraints I made a lot of good friends I know John did too that we still keep in touch to today a lot of the people on the calls that we're doing are friends who met around the world but we became a family of Rotarians around the world You hear about it you think about it but It felt like we were all joining together With the same mission the same belief and we were never too far away from a family

Jason Browne:

So It sounds like the commonality of the mission and the purpose brought some familiarity to some of the people that you met even if it was brief I know sometimes when I talk to folks they say Hey I don't usually take cruise ships because whenever you go to an Island you're there for a moment then you leave or I don't like to go on vacations because you hop in for a second then and then you leave the next day Do you feel that you have to be in A place for a long time to gain the benefits of travel

Peter Tehan:

I think because of our life experiences and we knew the shortness of time I think we embraced it so much that we understood We talked to people from all levels We talked to people in the stores and clerks and people in the caucus Yeah And we were very energetic on that I think that made a big difference And we really experienced the extremes of the trip from spending a day at Europa the Disneyland of Germany where one of our hosts gave us tickets to there just to change the pace to working two days in the ghettos of Karachi Pakistan And both places we've met people talk people we passed out our cards and say Hey we're doing flight around the world and listen to the stories Many of them telling stories about polio

John Ockenfels:

Right In Pakistan as a private example we spent a day and a half in the slums in Pakistan but the night before our host took us out to a very exclusive rowing club which would be like a yacht club anywhere else It's an old English club That's over a hundred years old It's not owned by the Pakistanis And we met all kinds of people there that were business owners and politicians and government people all parts of society at the upper end of their society And the next day we spent the day in the slums and you know what They're obviously different but there's a lot of similarities to the people Okay That's what we learned But you asked how do we get along How do we survive this trip And the one thing that was key to us getting along we decided early on that we're going to have two separate hotel rooms every night And that's because we were living this close together with our hands in each other's pockets for everything we did for hours and hours at a time And everybody needs the opportunity to unwind to have some personal time to just go read or do whatever get ready for the next day's flight talk to the friends at home or the friends and family so that's also a big key is go our separate ways in the evening and not be tied to each other

Jason Browne:

That makes sense

Peter Tehan:

From a mental health perspective I'd say there's three important you know there's three parts of all these experiences the mental health The physical what you touch what you see what you're doing the emotional things of you know we're giving that vaccination to that baby brought tears to my eyes to being fearful of whether or not we're going to make it to Hawaii To you know just exhaustion for me I was hospitalized three times but then the spiritual part which I really believe in are those powerful moments interacting with human beings or having experience or really touch you and change you Reaches down to the most inner part of your being and touches you and changes you forever This flight touched me dearly deeply spiritually and has changed me forever

Jason Browne:

What's one moment that you felt truly connected to the world around you or gave you that deeper meaning like one specific time maybe for each of you

Peter Tehan:

the child's head in my hand while someone else held him and putting those drops on his tongue and knowing that that child would never have polio in his life because that moment we were there to change his life forever

John Ockenfels:

But for me at four o'clock in the morning or four 30 in the morning on the end of the runway in Pongo Pongo looking down the brightly colored lights of that runway Cause they go from white to orange and red at the end and seeing nothing but a couple of white lights over on the side of the hill and everything else was black on black on black And then pushing the throttle forward as we advanced to start that 18 hour flight And for the next six hours or five hours whatever it was dark and cloudy And as you push that throttle forward I still remember thinking we're going to make it we're going to make it And so that to me was the commitment of the entire flight was that one take off because that was the longest one

Jason Browne:

So you spoke a little bit about the experiences that you were able to have with others but also the hardships and the difficulties and the challenges of the journey itself both of those exist in the space of travel So How has your perspective of the world changed because of this trip

John Ockenfels:

this trip showed me how easy it is to get along with other people and other cultures even if you don't speak their language there's so many things that we have in common that we can still communicate with Whether it's through conversation or food or whatever that there's always people out there that probably want to hurt you but there's also an awful lot of people out there that want to make sure you do good And if you let them they will

Jason Browne:

Peter anything from your side How does this change your perspective of the world And maybe it didn't maybe this was a trip that added an icing to the cake that was already pretty delicious

Peter Tehan:

Yeah I don't know if it changed This flight didn't necessarily change my perspective of the world It helped me understand how to better serve And I think as we were in the hospital wards of the children's hospital watching the children with polio and inflicted with other diseases and people standing in line for six pickets where they could get water and be the only source of water for 29 000 people for seeing these aid workers who would give every day they spend their lives These women every day they would go out door to door trying to help others and put an end to this polio It changed me in helping understand that the fight's not over with that once we end polio because we believe we're going to end polio there's going to be a whole lot more opportunities that we can bring the world together again and make mankind a safer place And that didn't sound corny But I reflect back on two old farts who were just going to fly around the world Even today are learning the impact of that decision of saying yes And what was going to be lost if we had given up on our dreams there is a lot of hope out there that we can share with others that there are people who care will make a difference And I've seen that in the genocide in Darfur and the collapse of Haiti after the earthquake And you know the number one thing that people need to survive in the world is the need to feel safe And that's really what the fight was about is making kids feel safe parents feel safe And when we feel safe the power of bringing humanity together can make a huge difference

Jason Browne:

there's 30 percent of Americans who've never been outside of the country So what does travel give To someone especially when you think about so many that don't or can't

John Ockenfels:

I can take you back to my very first out of the way stop outside of the United States back when I was a young airman in the air force and we landed in the Philippines and I'm looking down this downtown street at all the people in the stores and all this other stuff And I still remember thinking wow they have the same stuff here that we have in the United States It's that opportunity to understand that just because we have something good doesn't mean somebody else doesn't also have something good But opening that up to see that around the world people are doing good things in their own way

Peter Tehan:

We may dress differently We may be a different skin color We may eat different food but when you sit around a table with them we're all the same we all have the same problems with our families or our community or politicians whatever there is so much more commonality than there is difference and that's what you learn by going outside your safety zone I just talked to someone not too long ago who's never left the state of Iowa where we're from I'm thinking how small their world how small their perspective must be and how privileged we feel that you know we've been around the world and we've been in some of the worst places and the best places and we celebrate the commonality and the goodness that we all share with each other rather than the differences

Jason Browne:

So in my book the book that's going to be related I ask folks to think about using their privilege in three ways One the goal is to know your privilege Two is to use use your privilege to help yourself And then three use your privileges to help others So and you can answer this together What are those three for you all

John Ockenfels:

There's no question that the opportunities I had made my life Much better gave me the ability to have choices I wasn't directed in one path I had a number of paths that I can choose The other one was the opportunity to serve and to accept those opportunities was something I learned at a young age Don't walk away from it And obviously as you know I think for both Peter and I we both get more out serving others So it works a lot better for me when I know that I can help change somebody's life for what they perceive as a better life

Peter Tehan:

I think from the mental health aspect it is you know how to understand not necessarily the words that are being said but understand the meaning behind the words I think it is understanding from what my mother taught years as when I was a small child and grew me up as a woman in business that you know you gain more in life by giving by serving And this trip gives us an opportunity to figure out how many more ways we can serve And that will define even more what my being is It is more of not what you can get But what you can do and that really defines who you are And I constantly over all these years 71 years now of experiencing that thought I still see myself changing and hopefully changing for the better

Jason Browne:

What I heard from both of you is that service and to others not only helps other people but it helps yourself from a mental health standpoint And just for your personal wellbeing And that's also how you continue to learn about the privileges that are there That's what I heard That's what I'm taking away from what both of you said Y'all John Peter it's been a privilege to fly with you during this conversation And I look forward into the next time that we can hang out So thank

John Ockenfels:

And Jason I'm just going to tell you that I am tickled pink to have the opportunity to sit here and have this discussion because we went down paths I might not have gone down before

Dawn:

really appreciated your question about Did they feel like they got enough chance to spend time with the other people that they were serving a lot of this mission was a lot about them bringing a service to a person people in need but I'm also equally if not more fascinated by this idea of what did they get from the people that they visited it sounds like they were surprised a lot of the time about who they encountered and how welcoming they were But also I'm very interested in how those relationships and those people those friendships as they described really impact their lives because I think we were talking about before But how a really good relationship is about having those means where both parties benefit And so while this certainly we can see where them traveling around to raise money and raise awareness to polio was certainly a beneficial for the people in need It sounds like they also got a lot from that community

Jason Browne:

But there is a part of me that questions how superficial that is because they were only able to be there briefly and they are so convinced that the connection was

Dawn:

Genuine Genuine

Jason Browne:

even genuine is questionable to me

Dawn:

Yep

Jason Browne:

Someone is there for a temporary time They're doing something good You probably are asked by somebody else to be there but the from your point of view everything is perfect while they say that it's super positive and it was a great experience I wonder how true and authentic those reactions were and does that matter

Dawn:

I don't think what they had was a truly authentic experience They had talked about how a lot of it was Rotarians which of course is going to be a group of people who know them through a connection that also gives them a sense of predictability safety et cetera you can you when you say this person is a Rotarian then you know that there are certain qualities about them that are important I don't know what those are because I don't I still have yet to understand true what it is to be a true Rotarian

Jason Browne:

Nobody knows

Dawn:

exactly uh you know that that was their connection to a lot of these places And and then they talked about how they talked to a lot of other people but then they named people in service and service industry And I and so do I think they had a truly authentic connection with the people and the culture and the immersive experience that we talk about when we talk about when we travel No I don't think they did could that be because I'm biased and I don't think they probably had enough food or doing enough people watching That's correct can you ever have enough dumplings though yeah but I think that in a way I would have liked them to have spent More time in the places that they were serving to I get that they were on a mission but then the travel became sort of a means to that mission and it wasn't about the travel as much as it was about the we got to do this in less than 80 days We got to get to this distance and we got to spread all this awareness for this thing And as they talked about it they said about how it started to be just let's fly this awesome plane and let's get this experience And then it turned into this no Now it's all about Spreading this message and fundraising for polio which then made the travel part irrelevant or less

James Tierney:

It would be very interesting to hear the other side right because it could be one of those situations where the two of them get there Everything's great They're very thankful As soon as they leave is the community like great another White guy showed up for 48 hours to get the photo op of helping a couple of kids And now they're flying their 800 000 airplane away from us where's is there a disconnect there And maybe that's again my dismal thinking

Dawn:

I like your dismal thinking It's essential

James Tierney:

it'd be interesting to hear from

Jason Browne:

that's a real thought

Dawn:

Mm-Hmm right

Jason Browne:

if you fly in temporarily and then you leave especially and they even and they even referenced it if like people expected them not to even come because people happen to either do it as a tourist thing and maybe they'll come maybe they won't if they're here they're only four split second there is meaning in duration of staying in a place there is meaning there and we can speculate we'll never know how these people have felt but we know at least how peter and john Felt as a result of it And they're convinced that what they were a part of in the end what they were able to accomplish has impacted other people and has changed lives And since they raised 1 2 million you have to say that it has mean I guess you don't have to say but I mean it's hard to say that you didn't do it So in this particular case their travel even in brief it seemed to have impact If someone who does not have that strong of a mission if it goes back to me wandering to or James wandering two miles down the block and we only are there for two seconds is there value then placed upon you or someone else I don't know I don't know the answer to that question

Dawn:

Interestingly with the same parallel when you and I do our wondering is it the same as what we talked about here Is it the same as the way The way you experience travel with an actual like dedicated place to be where what is the purpose of that Is that for the communities we go to or is that also just for us And how is that received by the communities Do they see a person who's safely in a touristy area doing a very touristy thing and being like all right cool That's where this person be and then you and I are like why is this person in this part this was my not tourist area Why is there a tourist in my place of living

James Tierney:

I think it's important to recognize that the vast majority if not all things that we do are self serving even if we don't believe they are Because I told

Dawn:

I was going to say except that you said you don't think anything you do is self serving

James Tierney:

I mean that's like you know the way that we study economics is you're taking all the actions to best serve yourself And if we all are taking the actions to best serve ourselves and understand that by Serving others We're serving ourselves like improv The best way to make you look good is to make sure you're making your partner look good and vice versa so we should not like of course for Peter and John this was self serving for whatever reason I wanted to fly around the world Can I then use that for good to do this other thing And maybe if I would have sold my airplanes and lived off of top ramen I could have raised 5 million But I'm not gonna like that and so I need to do what I can to take not only serving others but serving myself to make it happen And

Jason Browne:

I think that Dawn you brought up this idea of purpose What is the purpose of travel If you have the ability to travel what is the purpose of it And finding out what that purpose is will define the benefit of that travel for yourself and for the communities to which you're going to impact And the only person that can answer whether or not travel the purpose of that travel is going to be the person traveling on that note we're going to wrap up Thank you so very much Dawn and James the economist

James Tierney:

You're welcome

Jason Browne:

The dismal

James Tierney:

perspectivee

Dawn:

to get

Jason Browne:

reigned

Dawn:

hate in

James Tierney:

gonna get so much hate in the

Jason Browne:

Oh it's perfect Perfect And that's where we're going to conclude part two on the privilege of travel What did we talk about that resonated with you What travels have you gone on that have connected to your identity or your experiences What doors have opened as a result of them Do you like to go alone or maybe you'd like to go with a group whatever it is make sure you hop on over to privilegepod on all platforms and leave a comment share with your friends and let's continue the conversation about the privilege of travel Thank you for listening Thank you for sharing And of course It's a privilege

People on this episode

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Jason Browne

Host
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Dawn Rosenbaum

Guest
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James Tierney

Guest
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John Ockenfels (Flight to End Polio)

Guest
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Peter Teehan (Flight to End Polio)

Guest