Privilege of Choice (Part 2 of 2): Lessons from a Planet Walker

What if you chose not to speak for 17 years and avoided motorized vehicles for 22 years? Join us in this eye-opening episode as we sit down with Dr. John Francis, the planet walker, to explore the profound journey of a man who defied societal norms with his unique lifestyle choices. We unpack his daily challenges, societal assumptions, and the regional impacts of civil rights issues that shaped his trek across the United States. Discover how his mother's worries for his safety and his origin played pivotal roles in his path, and contemplate the broader implications of embarking on such a dangerous yet enlightening journey.

We navigate the complex terrain of personal decisions, spirituality, and societal pressures, discussing how practices like fasting can be spiritually empowering even for the non-religious. Dr. Francis shares insights on the need for validation—external, internal, or spiritual—while making unconventional choices. We delve into the roles of discomfort and fear, the perseverance required to follow through despite societal norms, and the satisfaction that comes from trusting one's path. The conversation brings to light the challenges and rewards of walking alone, both literally and figuratively.

The episode also celebrates the beauty of difficult choices and the privilege of having choices at all. Dr. Francis reveals how he transformed criticism into personal growth and how his family's pride evolved with his journey. We discuss the intersection of mental health, motivation, validation, and privilege, emphasizing the importance of recognizing small yet meaningful accomplishments. Through personal anecdotes, Dr. Francis and we reflect on how privilege shapes perceptions of choice and survival. Join us to follow his ongoing adventures and the profound lessons he continues to impart.

Connect with Dr. John Francis, the PlanetWalker at https://planetwalk.org/

For more information about the host, go to www.thejasonbrowne.com
Check out the TEDx talk here: TEDx Possibilities of Privilege
Thanks you for being a part of the conversation.

Transcript

[00:00:00] Jason Browne: Welcome to it's a privilege podcast, where we explore the possibilities of our own privilege. This is part two on the privilege of choice. We strongly recommend for you to go back and listen to part one to get the full story. On today's episode, our special guest is Dr.

John Francis, the planet walker. He chose to not speak for 17 years and not ride a motorized vehicle for 22 years. Why? Well, I guess you're going to have to stick around and find out. I also have the, I also have the privilege. I also have the privilege, I also have the privilege of having two wonderful co hosts.

Dr. Seria Chatters, a TEDx speaker, and a mental health and wellness expert. And Brandon Rhodes, a gamer, improviser, and DEI director at Happy Valley Improv. What can you expect? First, our crew is going to dive deeper into the concepts of the privilege of choice, and then we'll get into the QAP questions, answers, and privilege with Dr.

Francis to further explore the nuance of his choices. We just finished watching Dr. Francis's We just finished watching Dr. Francis's. We just finished watching the privileged perspective with Dr. Francis. Let's see where that conversation takes us.

[00:00:59] Part 2: All right, everybody. Welcome back to it's a privilege. We just heard from Dr. John Francis, the planet Walker. What were your thoughts? There's so much to unpack in that story about choice. What, what, what heard, what did you hear that resonated with 

you? I 

[00:01:11] Brandon Rhodes: was just thinking of all the, all the choices made along the way, like in a single day, if you're just traveling from one side of the country to the other, like how many choices Has he been into like, like, was that, uh, the only choice he had? was that the only thought of getting into a big rig? Oh, it was on that day.

[00:01:28] Jason Browne: Oh, you mean like how many times was he tempted? Yeah. And 

[00:01:32] Brandon Rhodes: how many times, like how many interactions did he have in a day? How many times were passerbys saying, should I pick him up? Should I not? Yeah. Like, it's dangerous. Do I know this stranger? Uh, hitchhiking, it might be common now, but, uh, it could be a lot of dangerous situations.

[00:01:49] Dr. Chatters: Yeah. And, and the assumptions that we make when we see people walking, that it's not their choice to walk, right? Um, that typically when we see people walking along the side of the road, it's That if they could get a ride, they would because we all must want to ride, right? We don't want to walk. Um, and so that's, you know, that's really interesting of the choices, not thinking about the choices that people are making when they're seeing him.

Right? So, yeah. Yeah, um, what resonated with me as well as, um, just the timeline that he outlined of late sixties, then the seventies, and then thinking about what was going on in the United States around that time and how, um, he said he eventually made it to the East coast. But something that I had not thought about until, like, watching this, watching him speak as well, is how there was a lot of issues, and still are, around civil rights across the United States, but how a lot of the Major, major issues were centralized, which I hadn't thought about this because we always think about the South, right?

But we don't think Southeast. We think South, right? But if you think about it, there's a difference in the way that these types of issues were likely manifesting themselves in, in Nevada. Arizona, New Mexico versus Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana. Um, and how walking through those spaces, right. Um, how, even if you look at the distribution of sundown towns, for example, um, would be different if he had started on the East coast in that timeline, um, walking.

Um, and so that's something that came to mind for me, just hearing him talk about, The choices that he made and how he decided that this is what he wanted to do. Um, and then also hearing about his mother's concern for his safety. Um, and maybe how his choices may be the same or different if his, the place where he originated was different.

[00:03:41] Jason Browne: I think it's interesting that you're focusing on, this idea of two things. You're focusing on safety, um, and you're focusing on temptation. And it's almost. And, it's interesting how after his emphasis on the revelations found that we have a tendency to still focus on all the things that prevent us from having the choice in the first place.

Um, so if, and his biggest thing was like, while I was going through this, Uh, now he didn't mention this, but I know from his backstory, like he stayed with various people. he would just go to various people's homes and stay with them. And in those spaces, yes, it is very, it can be considered very dangerous.

And there's so many reasons why when we make decisions that we use, uh, our decision matrix is often built the, my, uh, Maslow's hierarchy of needs of safety, but in his, in his ability is in his choice. He saw something past that, was able to say, I'm choosing something in spite of this in search of something else.

And there's something beautiful in that, but it's really fascinating. We still cling to, oh, that's scary. Oh, I don't know. That's temptation, boy. Like, why do you think that is? Oh, I,

[00:04:49] Brandon Rhodes: I'm curious. Um, how this. Affected his like spirituality, he might not be religious, but, uh, we often use fasting as a way to, you know, connect on a deeper level.

Um, just like removing the option, like of speaking and, and, uh, you know, going in, um, vehicles. I wonder if that, that was like a spiritual thing for him. Even if he wasn't like religious, I wonder if it was like, it affected him like a more deeper state. Yeah.

[00:05:09] Dr. Chatters: Yeah. 

[00:05:10] Jason Browne: So the choice that he, you're wondering, did the choices that he make, are you saying were the choices that he made to find something or were they the result of the choice that was made? was it the reason why he made the choice or was it the outcome? Does it matter? 

[00:05:17] Brandon Rhodes: Um, I, I think that, uh, being tempted to get into the big rig. Yeah. Um, and then not doing it. Or no, there was a sign. It was a sign that said, he chose, he chose to do it, but then something, uh, I wouldn't, yeah, I want to, I don't want to pinpoint religion specifically, but spiritual, yes, he was like, uh, at the end of it, he felt, I wonder how he felt because he, He seems like, even just looking at him pause, he seems like very, very calm, uh, has a peace about him.

So I wonder how this, like, having that one time where he almost faltered, and then staying true to it. Uh, I wonder if that was, it just made him feel, uh, empowered spiritually 

[00:05:51] Dr. Chatters: or the universe was saying, you're not done yet. 

[00:05:53] Brandon Rhodes: Yeah. 

[00:05:54] Jason Browne: okay. To that, to that point, uh, that chatter. So like, if what is required to feel confident about a choice, so you're talking like, all right.

In these moments, even when he faltered, there's a certain level of like spirituality that reinforced his dedication and his stubbornness that he said, but like, what is necessary to feel, to, to feel comfortable about a choice? Because many times, whether you're a student, whether you're a parent, whether you're a mom, whether you're a friend, Or whether you're just in society, the temptation of not making certain choices is very obvious with social media.

We're, we're, we're encouraged to not make certain choices all the time. So what is the thing that we need? Do you think as humans to say, I feel comfortable making this choice and I'm going to stick with it. Even though that I hear from other people that this is not, even though if I hear from other people that I should choose differently.

[00:06:35] Brandon Rhodes: he said it there. He said the clouds parted up. It stopped raining. And it was that validation, like he felt validated in his, uh, pursuit. So, 

[00:06:44] Jason Browne: okay. If it wasn't the clouds parting, 

[00:06:44] Brandon Rhodes: do human meeting, okay.

The clouds parted in 

[00:06:44] Jason Browne: that case, Dr. Francis was validated externally, spiritually. Do we need validation? Is that the answer validation in order for us to feel comfortable, even if it's from another human being? Do you feel comfortable with the choice? I

[00:06:53] Brandon Rhodes: think it is at some part, there's somebody needs to be there to say you're doing the right thing.

If it's, it might be a physical person or it can, might be a sign that you perceive as this is right. 

[00:07:06] Dr. Chatters: Or in, or internal, Um, as well, because I think in the field of counseling, we talk to our, you know, our burgeoning counselors or clinicians. We talk about the importance of also feeling your gut.

what is your gut telling you about this scenario? Um, because sometimes you're not getting external validation and you're not going to get external validation. Um, I don't know about validation though, and I don't know about the concept of comfort, um, as well with choices. Because I, I think that sometimes you could be extremely uncomfortable.

In a choice that you are making, um, I'll, I'll even say, for example, um, because when we talk about the sense of safety, um, I think about even the difference of individuals who externally to other people, they perceive you. As female or if they perceive you as male, right? Um, and I say that because for, I'll just give an example of that.

I like walking around at night. I, I love the feel of being outside at night. I love walking around in the city at night. I loved walking around campus at night. Um, although I love those things, there are also, which I learned, especially as an undergrad. Um, at night that I felt great and I love that feeling.

However, there are also other people who chose to make that time and night a time that they would want to attempt to assault me. So the thing is, that sometimes we may not want to think about because, um, there are a lot of things that if it wasn't for. I think there's real and then there's perceived.

So I'll say that some people to say, you're, you have a perception that you are not safe. Um, but when you try to sometimes do something because of your love of it, right? I want to do this. Um, it's 1 of those things where sometimes external forces and factors remind you that they exist.

So I, I appreciate. What he, I not only appreciate, I'm in awe of what he did, um, and what is, he continues to do and I have a feeling that along his journey, he also came face to face with things that, um, reminded him of that he was not safe. I think he, but he was uncomfortable at times. And still, at the same time, continue to make that choice.

I have a feeling he came up across a number of things. Yeah. And so, he wasn't, I don't think it's comfort, necessarily. Um, I'm not sure about even validation, necessarily, because sometimes you may be, validation may be absent or at least external. Okay. Maybe it's that internal validation that you have to where you feel, you're That although I'm scared, um, I have this statement, I typically say, I say, hey, if you're scared to do it, scared because, um, it needs to be done kind of a thing.

Um, maybe he was scared. Maybe he, I don't know. You know, I'd love to hear more about his journey, but it was just that I'm just going to continue to keep putting 1 foot in front of the other. Until I get through this feeling of discomfort, until I get through this feeling of fear, and then once I get, I will eventually get to a place to where I'm okay again.

[00:10:16] Brandon Rhodes: Fear is very powerful. I wonder, what was going on in, like, that mental tug of war he had between the fear and the, the ability to continue walking it, like.

[00:10:25] Jason Browne: But I feel like this is a, while his adventure in choice making seems extreme from our point of view, I feel like these things that we're talking about are almost inherent with every choice that we make, especially if they are not exactly the way that society wants us to go.

If we deviate in any particular way, uh, if we, especially if we deviate in any particular way. Then we get those pressures from the outside or if we deviate from how society functions like being while being able to walk around at night society functions in a way that unfortunately predators operate statistically in these spaces well then you have to accommodate for them.

So whenever we deviate or we want to break into a space where the world or society hops into all of these factors exist, it can be a simple choice of just saying, Hey, I want to go and apply for college. Cause I'm the first one in my family to do 

[00:11:14] Dr. Chatters: so 

[00:11:15] Jason Browne: all of these things that all the fears, all of the current worries about validation, all of these things exist in that space.

And I'm trying to figure out, I'm trying to figure out with both of you of like, when it comes. Um, in the face of all that, is there something that we can hold on to or encourage to give to somebody else in this space that might need that extra. In my mind, I hope that it's validation, which means I have a power to help somebody else make a choice, right?

Uh, what else can we do to help others make choices in the face of all of this difficulty? 

[00:11:40] Dr. Chatters: So I, I think I probably need to clarify what I meant where I said that I don't necessarily think it's validation because I think that. There are people that exist that they probably could not identify an external validation or even inside of them, they were more in touch with the fear than they were in touch with a sense of confidence, right?

That I can move forward. However, I do think validation plays a part. Um, because I think that if I didn't think that it would be hard to even sit in any of the roles that we sit in, right? So if I didn't think the validation was a part. Then why am I associate vice provost right now in educational equity?

Why do I sit down and meet with students? Why like, we just are currently going through our what we call our appeal season where students are due to their grade point average and or credit hours. They're losing scholarships. Some students have lost full ride scholarships. My name goes on that letter that tells that student that I'm not renewing your scholarship.

And so if, um, and so I'm meeting with students right now as we speak, which is why my schedule is so chaotic. And I'm having a student come to me saying, I, you, you have now taken my full ride. Right. And what am I supposed to do about this? And I have to talk to that student and say, No, you didn't meet the requirements of this scholarship.

However, there are still, and mind you, this is not, these are not students that we said, hey, one and done. This is a student that they were not meeting a year ago. We notified them of it. There are lots of resources, supports that were poured in over the year and for whatever reason, still now they have not.

Made the grade, they have not made that piece, so now, uh, so if I didn't believe in validation, if I didn't believe in those things and trying to support a student and give a student hope in moving forward, then, but I'm just saying that I have a feeling that individuals like, Dr Francis here and others.

Probably may have made some choices and move forward, even when they could not find. Um, that confidence that validation. uh, cause I, I think that having external and internal senses of validation is privilege at times. 

[00:13:56] Brandon Rhodes: Mm. Would we call, um, In a survival scenario, when you have survived an event and you feel that, is that a form of validation or is that something else surviving the thing that you're fearful of?

Wait, 

[00:14:15] Jason Browne: be a little bit more specific. give me something tangible. So surviving 

[00:14:19] Brandon Rhodes: what? 

Um, we can go back to your example of just walking at, at night. Um, you've made it home. Yes. You've, walked. You've made it home. Maybe you've seen a couple people that are walking around with hoods up and you're like, I'm not sure. I don't know if I'm going to make it out of this situation, but you make it home.

Uh, just knowing that you've made it home and you're on the other side of that fearful, that stressful moment. Is that validation enough to do it again? Do it again. 

Mm-Hmm. . 

[00:14:49] Jason Browne: and I think that, I think that's true. I think that also happened to Dr. Francis, right? Yeah. He got, he got, he went to certain houses and he had certain experiences and he is had to push through it and say, I made that out.

I'm okay. He had a really tough night with the rain coming down and he is I'm cold. I'm just, this is terrible. What am I gonna do? And then he got out of it, which gave him the resolve to keep moving forward. I think they're surviving. Of making it through that difficult part. If you can get to that part where you were even making it through that difficulty, that has to be validating the, having those challenges and making it out on the other side has to be validating enough to say, I can do it.

You can, you already did it. It means you can do it again, uh, which makes it that much easier, which makes it potentially easier to make a choice in that similar vein. 

[00:15:27] Jason Browne: How does survival, temptation, wait, survival, what was the third one? The validation. 

[00:15:27] Dr. Chatters: Yeah.

[00:15:27] Jason Browne: How does survival, temptation, and validation impact the choices that we make?

Let's dig into Q A and P and let's check back in with Dr. Francis to see what he has to say.

 it's a privilege to have you on the show. Dr. Francis.

[00:15:46] Dr. John Francis: thanks, Jason. It's a privilege to be here as well.

[00:15:49] Jason Browne: Every day might be different, but what are three privileges that you're feeling today? It could be anything. it could be the fact that it's a beautiful day outside that you're breathing. Just what are three privileges that you're feeling today?

[00:16:00] Dr. John Francis: I think the first privilege is having a family and being here in Cape May with my family. the next privilege is having the health. to be able to walk and be with you here today. and, the next privilege is, I think, just being able to do the things that I do, like to travel to Africa, to get in a plane and fly and be on another continent, and to walk and be with the people in that continent and learn about them and share their lives and to be able to share that with all of you. it's the most amazing and privileged. I could keep going on three privileges. Is that enough?

[00:16:47] Jason Browne: That's Absolutely plenty. you've made the very profound choice in your life to, not talk for 17 years and not take motorized vehicles for 22 years. many folks go through their lives thinking they have a limited set of choices. What is your perspective on the choices we have in life?

[00:17:07] Dr. John Francis: first choice. That we have is, to just find that person who you are, there's only you, there's a unique you, there's nobody else, not like being John Francis, or not like being Jason Browne, it's, we are each the, Our own person and find that person. That's the person that we want you to be, that you need to be, that the world needs.

We all need you.

[00:17:40] Jason Browne: Wonderful. it seemed like you felt like the world needed you to be you when you made some of the choices you did when you were younger. like the ones that we've mentioned so far, but you also mentioned that people looked at you like in a weird way, almost as if you were crazy to make the choices that you felt were right for you, what did it feel like to have that judgment placed on you?

How did you get past that?

[00:18:03] Dr. John Francis: Yeah. when people say, Oh, you're crazy for being who you are. it's almost like a badge of honor or a test you have to appreciate That life has put in front of you an obstacle or a criticism so that you can learn from. I think it's important to take it that way so that we don't say, I don't like you for being critical of me.

No, I really like you for being critical of me because without your criticism. I wouldn't know where it is. I am and how it is. I need to change or not. all the criticism became like people who were angels sent to say, okay, you should, do this now. And I go, no, I'm not going to do that.

Or I'm going to do this because this is who I am. This is what it feels like for me. accept those criticism and you, still love those people You can still love them and still treat them with kindness.

[00:19:17] Jason Browne: The last question I think is going to be something like, some might consider you less privileged because of the choices that you made, the lack of ability, the lack of access. What is the beauty of making choices that might appear to be difficult?

[00:19:33] Dr. John Francis: as I, Have made these choices in the beginning of this journey to not ride in cars to not speak to continue to walk one of the things that I discovered is that you can discover things that you had not imagined, because it's everybody's going this way and everybody seeing this.

But you're actually discovering, rediscovering and discovering new possibilities.

[00:20:09] Jason Browne: right.

[00:20:10] Dr. John Francis: it's fine to have the technology, but just as rewarding and just as important for us to, decompress And understand what nature is as purely as we can, 

The choices are like, I could stay and just be walking and not talking. But that ended, I got to a place where now my choice is, it's time for me to ride in motorized vehicles and still appreciate walking and not talking. It's time for me to start speaking and still appreciate what I learned about.

Life and each other and listening and communication, all of those things are important as my dad, when he would follow me as I graduated from college to college, he would say, your mom and I are Really proud of you for graduating here at Southern Oregon State College.

It's wonderful. What are you going to do with a bachelor's degree? You're going to have to ride in cars and talk. I would get to Montana and he would say, listen, don't think we're not proud of you for getting a master's degree. You didn't ask us for money or anything, but what are you going to do with a master's degree?

if you don't ride in cars and talk, and then it would, I got to the University of Wisconsin and my dad shows up and he says, Look, my sister said I should leave you alone because you're doing so well without saying anything. PhDs are a dime a dozen. What are you going to do with a PhD if you don't ride in cars and talk? and so when I started speaking in Washington on the 20th anniversary of Earth Day, my dad said, That's one. And when I came home in Christmas, my dad said, this is the happiest Christmas of my life.

[00:22:20] Jason Browne: That's a beautiful way to tie everything back together is the family and the one and the two. And again, some people would be like, you're a black man in the United States choosing to not.

talk or drive. You're putting a lot stacked up against you, but you found a way to thrive and be connected in a way that is really beautiful.

 and even in the face of all of that, you found the humanity in these pieces and that's a really beautiful thing. And it's really difficult to say, cause a lot of folks would be like, Ah, no, none of this can happen because of the things of the privileges that you have. And you were like, Nah. You can, you just gotta planet walk, You just gotta planet walk. On this note, Dr. Francis, it's been a privilege to have you with me. We end the show in the same way every single time the three foundational, themes of using your privilege in this world.

We think of it in three ways. First, know your privilege. Second, use your privilege to help yourself. And then third, use your privilege to help others After this chat, how are you going to do those three things? it can be pretty quick if you want it to be.

[00:23:31] Dr. John Francis: Knowing the privilege, I think, is, just being able to make a choice. If you can make a choice, that's a privilege. you're free to make a choice. That's a privilege.

And the next one is, how are you going to use this privilege to help yourself? for me, if you can. Discover who you are and be that person. That's a privilege. and how is this privilege going to help all of us being who you are? That privilege is going to help all of us because we don't want you.

To be anyone but who you are.

[00:24:14] Jason Browne: where can people find you to follow you on your journeys all through Africa, Dr. Francis,

[00:24:19] Dr. John Francis: you can find me @ planetwalk.org and, I'm sure on Facebook and Instagram and all those other things 

[00:24:29] Jason Browne: Oh, Dr. Francis, I appreciate you to be here today. It's been a privilege to chat with you, to learn from you, to be humble and to appreciate humanity through your eyes and especially make the choice to be here to hang out.

So thank you so very much.

[00:24:43] Dr. John Francis: Peace.

[00:24:44] Jason Browne: With that last bit of insight from Dr. Francis, what's, what's, what jumped out to you? How does this all relate back to our conversation?

[00:24:51] Dr. Chatters: It's, um, I thought 

[00:24:51] Brandon Rhodes: that was very sweet. Just that end part, you know, getting that, getting that love from his father in the end. I, I just wanted to say that it, it was very touching. 

[00:25:00] Jason Browne: Right. But the choices that he made, it like goes back to what we were talking about. He didn't get validation from his father.

He got pushed back the entire time. And then it wasn't until the very end, after he was able to get through all of it, that he risked all of that, not validation for those really beautiful moments at the end. And because it worked out, it feels like a really wonderful story, but his choice also could have ended in the opposite Direction.

[00:25:23] Brandon Rhodes: I, 

[00:25:23] Brandon Rhodes: I see the end part as a reward. Just getting those compliments as a reward, I do see those, like, 

[00:25:31] Brandon Rhodes: saying you need a car and you need to talk. I see that as a form of, I don't, I don't know, maybe not validation, but just a, a factor to encourage him to keep his resolve. 

[00:25:42] Jason Browne: Almost. Oh, uh, so my, dad has a really weird way of encouraging me to do things.

You think it's just like that dad way of encouragement. It's a little bit of like tough love, but it's also meant to be encouraging. Is that what you're saying? 

[00:25:52] Brandon Rhodes: Yeah. Oh, well, a lot of times whenever I do something or if I want to do something, um, If I don't get a hard no. Mm. I don't think of it as a no.

Like, interesting. Yeah. I think of like, I'm going to continue. If, somebody comes to me and says, no, Brandon don't do that. Uh why, not do that? Uh, because you're gonna cause physical or harmful damage. You, they give me, they lay out the facts. Yeah. For me, I'm like, okay, all I won't do it. But if they're like, oh. 

Don't do that because it's stupid. Might walk, like, walk with that. Like walk or it's, you have all these, uh, these amenities. You have all these privileges, you should use those. And I'm like, oh, okay. So you're not telling me hard? No, there's no, there's no harm in it. Continue to do what I'm, I'm, I'm doing.

[00:26:02] Dr. Chatters: Mm-Hmm. . Mm-Hmm. that and that kind of aligns with it, it sounds like with what? The conversation with his dad. 'cause his dad didn't say. didn't outline any kind of actual harm that was happening, um, because of the fact that he wasn't talking and with the dad continuously saying how are you going to get your master's?

How are you going to get your PhD? He did right. He was able to do it without talking. So even those. Perceived threats from the dad's perspective, right? They weren't real threats for him. And some, some kids, even though it's hard to say kid in his perspective seeing his age, but he's his father's child, um, are motivated to do things that their parents say that they can't do.

So there's that validation again, right? That internal motivation, like dad says, I can't do it. I'm not only going to do it, I'm going to walk there and I'm going to do that now, dad and dad is still what about this? Right. Um sometimes because your parents say you can't do it, you feel motivated to do it.

So motivation can come in many

[00:27:00] Jason Browne: forms, even if it appears to be negative, it's Ooh, you just fueled the flames, my friend. Dad, you just got me in the mode. Yeah, I can totally see that. One of the other things he mentioned was this idea of, uh, uh, Self confidence and a strong self identity. He's if you know it inside, you're able to almost do it.

But I feel like that is a privilege. Not, not, not everybody has that sense of confidence, which is why the validation becomes so important. So can you make difficult choices without validation and with limited self confidence?

[00:27:30] Dr. Chatters: Nope.

[00:27:34] Jason Browne: Nope. Can't. 

[00:27:36] Dr. Chatters: And I don't know. I think that what is a difficult, what is a difficult choice? Um, would be my question because for some. Just I'm sorry, going to the mental health World. Um, which we talk to our students a lot of the time when they're trying to get validation from their client that they're doing the right thing as a therapist.

So they may try to find that validation in the choices that their client makes or doesn't make. And what we try to help them to see is that sometimes you have to change your mindset. Regarding, especially when dealing with people that are experiencing mental health issues regarding what you consider to be difficult because for a person who is not experiencing a mental health crisis, getting up in the morning, taking a shower, brushing your teeth, fixing yourself breakfast, that's just something that many of us do on autopilot in some cases for a person that's severely depressed, getting up in the morning and just getting out of bed is a difficult Choice. 

um, and they may not have being in bed. They are having difficulty talking to anyone. They're having an oftentimes people that are severely depressed. They isolate. But the fact that they got out of bed was a difficult choice for them that morning, right? With very little motivation because they're depressed with very little validation because part of depression is shutting yourself off from that external World.

Um, and so as a therapist, we have to look at the fact that even if they come to counseling and they may smell awful, right? Cause were not, they were not, did not have that motivation to be able to take a shower that day, brush their teeth, anything we have to compliment that and see that as progress and see that as a difficult choice that was made.

Right. So I guess the question is for each of us, difficult choices may be Different, right? Um, so I would say, yes, you can make difficult choices with little validation and little motivation, um, because we have people, especially living day to day and even choosing to live, um, with severe depression that are doing that right now as we speak.

[00:29:36] Brandon Rhodes: I do remember. A TED talk years back, and they talked about faking it until you own it, just like going through the motions until that is if you imagine your life being in this place, just faking these routines until it does become your natural world. I do want to point out one 

[00:29:58] Jason Browne: thing, though is that, When someone shows up in that way to a session with you, you are validating them into a certain extent of saying thank you for being like, you're like, there's a certain thing that still is existing there.

And it is without that, it becomes more difficult that it's easier to come back and hopefully continue that process. So as we're wrapping up, I want to get the final thoughts from both of you. What, how do choices relate to each of us when it comes to privilege? Let's start with you. 

[00:30:31] Dr. Chatters: Wow. So first of all it's, been a privilege to even be in this conversation.

Because this is a conversation that I think could happen all day. This is a fab. This is the fastest I've seen like this hour and a half or whatever go by. So thank you for that. How the choices connect with privilege, you know, from this conversation and having You know, this opportunity to even hear some of Dr Francis's journey is when we were talking earlier about survival something that came to mind is the choice to thrive.

Because I I think that we want. Do we want individuals to be able to, find motivation validation in surviving? We hope that they do. But we hope that individuals well, I hope that individuals have more opportunities and choices that they can make that put them on a path of being able to thrive.

And I think that some individuals have more privilege than others. Do you have many choices in front of them in which they can thrive in many different spaces where some have many choices that kind of came out of, traumatic experiences, survival, things that they had an opportunity to survive through.

So I think that on that is something that when I think about that privilege and I even think about my kids my husband and I have this conversation all the time because we think to ourselves. When we see our kids, right? Two boys in college right now, and we think to ourself, how could they not see all of the choices that are in front of them, right?

How could they not see that, Hey my parents work at this university so they get this discount, right? So I get that the type of university that the u that they're going to, even though for them, they see it as. 13th grade because they've lived here, they've grown up in state college. How can they not see these amazing choices?

And what we've realized is they didn't grow up the way that we did, right? They grew up here in state college. They grew up having access to a lot of the things that neither he or I had access to. So because of, for both of him and I, our stories of survival. We have been able to set up a life for our children in which From our perspective they are thriving from their perspective.

This is a Tuesday. It's 

[00:33:08] Jason Browne: a 

[00:33:11] Dr. Chatters: Tuesday, right? So like they're upset because today we didn't get Starbucks That kind of thing. And this is like, why did I not get Starbucks today? When for, my husband and I it was a privilege to go to a restaurant for the entire, for months.

Like it was an exciting thing to get the dollar 99 happy meal at McDonald's and be able to be allowed to get cheese. On your burger, because your mom would say, no, we're going to take that burger home and we're going to slap a slice of the cheese at home, which was a block of, of cheese that you would cut with the cheese, 

[00:33:55] Jason Browne: right?

[00:33:58] Dr. Chatters: The hard cheese, right? When you're so I think that when we think about that privilege I always have to continuously remind myself that there is some privilege. Even though it's born out of coming from a place of survival, there is some privilege also of being aware of choices.

And so I think Dr Francis's journey, it probably opened his eyes. When he's riding in a car, many of us take that for granted, right? It opened his eyes to a lot of things. I think that we take for granted every day, which probably makes the tapestry of his existence on a day to day basis so much more rich because he's aware of so many things that we just. We just pass by, right? And I think that sometimes, stories of survival inadvertently also enrich your life in a way because you are aware of things that other people may not be. 

[00:34:49] Jason Browne: You just said tapestry of existence. No, I 

[00:34:59] Dr. Chatters: didn't. Just came out of my mouth. 

[00:35:03] Jason Browne: Oh no. 

[00:35:04] Brandon Rhodes: I just wanted to say, I love today's episode because I feel like we fully encapsulated choice from the driving factors that make you want to make the choice to the choice itself, the validation you get after it.

The overall reward that you get, the fears that are in there that drive those choices. So I thought this was like very thorough, uh, show. 

[00:35:30] Jason Browne: Awesome. Thank you so very much for everybody for hanging out. This is called It's A Privilege. It's a privilege to be here. It's a privilege to hang out with you.

And that's where we're going to conclude. And that's where, and that's where we're going to conclude the privilege of choice. 

And that's where we're going to conclude the privilege of choice. Hopefully you've enjoyed the conversation. Hopefully you've enjoyed the stories.

Feel free to go on, feel free to go to our social media at privilege pod on all. Feel free to go to our social media @privilegepod on all platforms, and let us know some of your thoughts about the possibilities of privilege, especially as it relates to choice. Thank you so much for listening. Thank you.

Thank you so much for listening. Thank you for sharing. And of course, it's a privilege.